John the Baptist 27 AD "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) 27 AD "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matthew 3:7) 27 AD "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matthew 3:10) 27 AD "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matthew 3:12) 27 AD "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17) 27 AD "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) 27 AD “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Luke 3:7) 27 AD “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Luke 3:9) 27 AD "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Luke 3:17) Jesus the Christ 28 AD "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 10:7) 28 AD "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23) 28 AD "....the age about to come." (Matthew 12:32) 28 AD “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Luke 10:9) 28 AD “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Luke 10:11) 30 AD "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matthew 16:27) 30 AD "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:28; cf. Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27) 30 AD "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:40-41,43,45) 30 AD "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34) 30 AD "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) 30 AD "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mark 12:9,12) 30 AD "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mark 13:30) 30 AD “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Luke 20:15-16,19) 30 AD “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:22) 30 AD "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Luke 21:32) 30 AD "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Luke 23:28-30; Compare Revelation 6:14-17) 30 AD "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (John 14:18,20,22) 30 AD "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (John 21:22) The Disciples 30 AD "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Luke 24:21) Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles 52 AD “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15,17; 5:4) 52 AD “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23) 52 AD “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (2 Thessaloniams 1:6-7) 56 AD “The time has been shortened.” (1 Corinthians 7:29) 56 AD “The form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:31) 56 AD “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11) 56 AD “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) 56 AD "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (1 Corinthians 16:22) 56 AD “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (1 Timothy 4:8) 56 AD “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Timothy 6:14) 56 AD “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (1 Timothy 6:19) 57 AD “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31) 58 AD “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Romans 4:23-24) 58 AD “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Romans 8:13) 58 AD “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Romans 8:18) 58 AD "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Romans 13:11-12) 58 AD “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Romans 16:20) 60 AD “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15) 60 AD “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25) 61 AD "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Ephesians 1:21) 61 AD “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (2 Timothy 3:1-2,5-6,8-9) 61 AD “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (2 Timothy 4:1) 62 AD “The Lord is near.” (Philippians 4:5) 62 AD "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Colossians 1:23; Compare Matthew 24:14; Romans 10:18; 16:26; Colossians 1:5-6; 2 Timothy 4:17; Revelation 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7) 62 AD “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Colossians 2:16-17) 63 AD “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Hebrews 1:1-2) 63 AD “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14) 63 AD “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Hebrews 2:5) 63 AD “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Hebrews 6:5) 63 AD "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Hebrews 6:7-8) 63 AD “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) 63 AD “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:8-10; Compare Galatians 4:19; Ephesians 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13) 63 AD “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Hebrews 9:11) 63 AD “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Hebrews 9:26) 63 AD “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Hebrews 10:1) 63 AD “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:25) 63 AD “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:27) 63 AD “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Hebrews 10:37) 63 AD “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Hebrews 13:14) Peter the Apostle to the Circumcision 30 AD “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17) 62 AD “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1:5) 62 AD “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (1 Peter 1:20) 62 AD “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (1 Peter 3:3,5) 62 AD “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (1 Peter 4:5) 62 AD “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (1 Peter 4:7) 62 AD "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (1 Peter 4:17) 62 AD “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (1 Peter 5:1) 62 AD “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (2 Peter 1:19) 62 AD “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (2 Peter 2:3) 62 AD “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (2 Peter 3:10-12) James 62 AD "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:12) 62 AD “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (James 5:1,3) 62 AD “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (James. 5:7) 62 AD “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (James. 5:8) Jude the brother of James 62 AD “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15) 62 AD “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19) John the Apostle whom Jesus loved 62 AD “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (1 John 2:8) 62 AD “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (1 John 2:17) 62 AD “It is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18) 62 AD “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18; Compare Matthew 24:23-34) 62 AD “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (1 John 4:3; Compare 2 Thessaloniams 2:7) 63 AD “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Revelation 1:1) 63 AD “The time is near.” (Revelation 1:3) 63 AD “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Revelation 2:25) 63 AD “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Revelation 3:10) 63 AD “I am coming quickly.” (Revelation 3:11) 63 AD “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Revelation 12:5) 63 AD "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24; Compare Matthew 23:35-36; Luke 11:50-51) 63 AD “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Revelation 22:6) 63 AD "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Revelation 22:7) 63 AD "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Revelation 22:10; Compare Daniel 8:26) 63 AD "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Revelation 22:12) 63 AD "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Revelation 22:20)

` AGAINST ERROR

Against Error

ERROR: Bi-Millennialism

Michael Fenemore does a fine job with his preceding article: Matthew 24: Is Double Fulfillment Possible? He demonstrates the thoughtful Bible skills that deduce the Lord's 70AD Return. What mystifies me, though, is when others who also esteem such Bible skills and thereby come to the same 70AD conclusion, then go on to violate those very Bible skills to fudge together all manner of dubious theories. What comes to mind specifically in regards to "double-fulfillment" theories would be "Full-Preterism's" very own "Bi-Millennium" theories that see in the Rev 20:1-10 passage two distinct "1000 Years" periods, simply because John relates the vision by sometimes writing, "A thousand years" while at other times writing, "THE thousand years." Ludicrous! Why don't we just start coming up with Bi-Salvation theories? Or Double-Messiah theories? Or Dual-Covenant theories? Or two different "God's People": one group who loves Jesus and another who hates Him? Or dubious guesses of the Apostles predicting Double-Days of the Lord? Ridiculous! (Actually, history records people doing exactly these things). Such fancies and loose handling of Holy Writ are NOT how the 70AD Return of Christ was deduced in the first place.

Bisecting Bi-Millennialism:

Revelation 20:1-10
[Before the 1000 years start]
And I foresaw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for A thousand years, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until THE thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
[During the 1000 years]
4 And I foresaw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I foresaw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for A thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until THE thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for A thousand years.
[After the 1000 years are completed]
7 And when THE thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

NASB ("I foresaw" is substituted for "I saw" since this is was a predictive vision, Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1)

Notice how:

A) Rev 20:2 Foresaw how Satan was to be bound, cast and sealed into the abyss (bottomless pit) for A thousand years.

B) Rev 20:4 Foresaw how the souls of Christ’s martyrs who rejected the Beast (Nero) came to life and reigned with Christ for A thousand years.

C) Rev 20:6 Explained this was to be the first resurrection of the two mentioned here: the blessed group of souls were foreseen to resurrect and then reign with Christ for A thousand years, but the rest of the dead were foreseen to resurrect after the thousand years end.

And notice how:

D) Rev 20:3 Foresaw that Satan was to be released from the abyss at the end of the thousand years just referred to in Rev 20:2 : therefore, Rev 20:3’s “THE thousand years” = “A thousand years” of Rev 20:2. D=A
E) Rev 20:5 Foresaw that the rest of the dead were not come to life again until the end of the thousand years just referrred to in Rev 20:4 : therefore, Rev 20:5’s “THE thousand years” = “A thousand years” of Rev 20:4. E=B

F) Rev 20:7 Foresaw that Satan was to be released from his prision, (the abyss of Rev 20:3), upon completion of the thousand years just referred to in Rev 20:6 (and in Rev 20:3) : therefore, Rev 20:7’s “THE thousand years” = “A thousand years” of Rev 20:6 (and of Rev 20:3). F=C .

Additional observation: Rev 20:7 = Rev 20:3 Both verses foresee Satan being released at the end of the thousand years from the imprisoning abyss into which he had been bound & cast at the beginning of the thousand years: F=D . And since, as shown previously, F=C and D=A, therefore F=D=A=C .

Bi-Millennial Preterism correctly admits that:

A=B=C
“A thousand years” in Rev 20:2 = “A thousand years” in Rev 20:4 = “A thousand years” in Rev 20:6.

D=E=F
“THE thousand years” in Rev 20:3 = “THE thousand years” in Rev 20:5 = “THE thousand years” in Rev 20:7

But, as shown above, it is equally obvious from the Bible Text that:

D=A Rev 20:3’s “THE thousand years” = “A thousand years” of Rev 20:2
E=B Rev 20:5’s “THE thousand years” = “A thousand years” of Rev 20:4
F=C Rev 20:7’s “THE thousand years” = “A thousand years” of Rev 20:6 (and of Rev 20:3)

THEREFORE: A=B=C = D=E=F

CONCLUSION:

Every appearance of the term “thousand years” in the Rev 20:1-10 passage is referring to one and the same, exact period of time, recent innovation notwithstanding.

There is no more two Millenniums in Rev 20:1-7
than there are two Tribulations in Mat 24.

BIBLE SKILL EMPHASIZED HERE: no amount of appeals to distant texts can escape the plain message of the immediate context.
Context, context, context:
1) Every passage must first be reconciled with its immediately surrounding passages,
2) Then those passages are to be reconciled with their immediately surrounding chapters,
3) Then they are to be reconciled with the entirety of the book in which they are found,
4) Then they are to be reconciled with the remainder of the New Testament, Apostolic Teaching,
5) And finally, they are to be reconciled with the more distant passages within the corpus of Holy Writ, the Bible.
A measure of credibility is forfeited when this context principle is ignored.


BONUS OBSERVATION: anyone who:
1) says that the 1000 years ended at 70AD and then
2) says that Jesus Returned at 70AD has just taught that
3) Satan was released when Jesus came back.
(review Rev 20:3, 7)


RELEVANT LINKS:

Honestly, does the Bible really teach that Satan was bound, cast & sealed into the Deep (Abyss) while Christians ruled with God & Christ throughout the bulk of the 30-70AD period? (Actually, wasn't such blessings what they were expecting to arrive with Christ's soon Return?)

Norman L. Geisler and "This Generation"

Norman L. Geisler and "This Generation"
by Gary DeMar
7/10/2007

One of the foundation stones of dispensationalism in particular and futurism in general is the claim that “this generation” in Matthew 24:34 either refers to a future generation (“the generation that sees these signs”) or the Jewish race. Norman Geisler, in his critique of Hank Hanegraaff’s The Apocalypse Code, argues that the Greek word genea should be translated “race.” He writes: “as virtually all acknowledge, it can mean ‘this [Jewish] race’ will not pass away—which it has not. Greek experts Arndt and Gingrich acknowledge that the term genea can have an ethnic use of ‘family, descent, . . . clan, then race (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 249, emphasis added).” Notice that Geisler says “can have.” The problem is, there is no place in the NT where genea is translated as “race,” and the lexicon cited by Geisler does not point to a verse where “race” would be the appropriate translation.1 Moreover, Geisler does not tell his readers that the Greek-English Lexicon also states that genea (generation) means “the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time. Generation, contemporaries.”2 The passages referenced as examples of this definition are Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32 where the text reads “this generation.”

I’m surprised that Geisler would even consider the genea–as–race argument. While the Scofield Reference Bible takes this position, almost no one today, including dispensational authors, argue that “this generation” should be translated “this race.”

There are two problems with the “race” translation. First, as we’ve seen, the Greek word used in Matthew 24:34 is genea, a word that in other contexts means “generation.” Try using “race” where “generation” appears in these verses: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32. Geisler even admits this, but claims that it can have a different meaning in a “prophetic context.” What is the basis for this line of argument? He never tells us.

Second, if Jesus wanted to say that “this race will not pass away until all of these things take place,” He would have used the Greek word genos to clear up any possible confusion. He uses genea (“generation”) not genos (“race”).

Third, there is a logical problem if genea is translated “race.” Since “race” is a reference to the Jewish race, Matthew 24:34 would read this way: “This Jewish race will not pass away until all these things take place. When all these things take place, then Jewish race will pass away.” This doesn’t make any sense, especially for a premillennialist like Geisler who believes the Jews will reign with Jesus for a thousand years after the period described by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Fellow dispensationalist Stanley Toussaint dismisses Geisler’s line of argument:

It is difficult for dispensational premillennialists to take this view because this would imply that Israel would cease to exist as a nation after the Lord’s return: “This race of Israel will not pass away until the Second Advent.” But Israel must continue after the Second Advent into the millennium in order to fulfill the promises God made to that nation.

Fourth, each and every time “this generation” is used in the gospels, it refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. The use of the near demonstrative “this” locks the time of “this generation” that was near to Jesus. If Jesus had a future generation in mind, He would have said “that generation,” as in, “that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Consider what these Bible commentators say about the meaning of “this generation”:

  • D.A. Carson: “[This generation] can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.”4
  • William Sanford LaSor: “If ‘this generation’ is taken literally, all of the predictions were to take place within the life-span of those living at that time.”5
  • John Lightfoot: “Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matt. xvi. 28, compare John xxi. 22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived until the city was destroyed.”6
  • Thomas Newton: “It is to me a wonder how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation.”7
  • [T]he obvious meaning of the words ‘this generation’ is the people contemporary with Jesus. Nothing can be gained by trying to take the word in any sense other than its normal one: in Mark (elsewhere in 8:12, 9:19) the word always has this meaning.”8
  • John Gill: “This is a full and clear proof, that not any thing that is said before [v. 34], relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and the end of the world; but that all belongs to the coming of the son of man in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”9
  • William Lane: “The significance of the temporal reference has been debated, but in Mark ‘this generation’ clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus (see on Chs. 8:12, 38; 9:19) and there is no consideration from the context which lends support to any other proposal. Jesus solemnly affirms that the generation contemporary with his disciples will witness the fulfillment of his prophetic word, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the dismantling of the Temple.”10
  • “Matthew uses genea here for the tenth time. Though his use of the term has a range of emphases, it consistently refers to (the time span of) a single human generation. All the alternative senses proposed here (the Jewish people; humanity; the generation of the end-time signs; wicked people) are artificial and based on the need to protect Jesus from error. ‘This generation’ is the generation of Jesus’ contemporaries.”

Norman Geisler needs to take a second look at his claim that “this generation” can be translated as “this race.” All the evidence points to the generation Jesus was addressing and not the “Jewish race” or a future generation.


Gary DeMar is the President of American Vision.

1 The King James Version translates genos as “generation” in 1 Peter 2:9.

2I’m using the fourth revised edition of Arndt and Gingrich (1952). The page number in this edition on genea is 153.

3Stanley D. Toussaint, “A Critique of the Preterist View of the Olivet Discourse,” Bibliotheca Sacra (October December 2004), 483–484.

4D.A. Carson, “Matthew” in The Expositor=s Bible Commentary, gen. ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, 12 vols. (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1985), 8:507

5William Sanford LaSor, The Truth About Armageddon: What the Bible Says About the End Times (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1987), 122.

6John Lightfoot, A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica, 4 vols. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, [1658–1674] 1859), 2:320.

7Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies Which Have Remarkably Been Fulfilled (1754).

8Robert G. Bratcher and Eugene A. Nida, A Translator's Handbook of the Gospel of Mark (New York: United Bible Societies, 1961), 419.

9John Gill, An Exposition of the New Testament, 3:296.

10William L. Lane, Commentary on the Gospel of Mark (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1974), 480.

11John Nolland The Gospel of Matthew: A Commentary on the Greek Text (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2005), 988–989.

Common Grace, Special Grace and Universalism

Common Grace: I believe I first learned the term "Common Grace" from Presbyterian brothers who collect all the Scriptures pertaining to God's love & blessings for the common unregenerate man under this heading.

"He sends His rain on the just and the unjust..." etc.

Special Grace: And this is the term employed to refer to all those Scriptures that speak of God's love & blessings reserved strictly for those who are in Christ.

"If any man keep my sayings, my Father will love him...." etc.

Universalism: The cancerous doctrine that actively ignores the distinction between the above two.

30-70AD Millennialism: Foundation of Preterist Universalism

"9) 40 year Millennium? Mt.23, Rev.20, Revelations Recapitulation Structure

 
Hank a 40 year millennium seemed to bother you, and Steven you said it was “possible.” Please see my section on Peter’s 1,000 years and John’s in Rev.20 on (pp.46-52). Also, note my quotes of Rabbi’s who understood (Ps.90) to teach a 40 year millennium."

My Response: UNIVERSALISM and the 30-70AD MILLENNIAL VIEW

 

Blue = those martyred for the Word of God, for refusing to worship the Beast (aka Nero Ceasar), rejecting the Beast's mark.

Brown = those who accepted the Mark of the Beast (aka Nero Ceasar), that is, “the rest of the dead” of Rev 20:5.

 

 

Rev 1:9 (penned circa 62-66AD at beginning of the Tribulation to encourage rejection of the Beast and his mark)
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
...
Rev 13:16-18 (penned circa 62-66AD at beginning of the Tribulation to encourage rejection of the Beast and his mark)
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
...
Rev 20:1-7 (penned circa 62-66AD at beginning of the Tribulation to encourage rejection of the Beast and his mark)
1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, …
NASB.
 
Virtually all Bible students agree that
Rev 20:4’s came to life” = “resurrection of Rev 20:5.
No argument there.
 
 
But those who insist that Rev 20:1-10 describes the 30-70AD situation are seduced to suppose that
Rev 20:4-5’s “came to life" = "resurrection" = "have everlasting life" of John 3:16
Thing is,
Rev 20:4’s “came to life” must equal “come to life” of Rev 20:5
 
That is,
Rev 20:4’s “came to life” reward to those beheaded & Martyred from the Tribulation who rejected Beast & his mark
= Rev 20:5's “came to life” reward to the rest of the dead at the end of the "thousand years" (of 30-70AD supposedly).
 
So,
IF Rev 20:4’s “came to life” = "have everlasting life" John 3:16
AND Rev 20:4’s “came to life” = “come to life” of Rev 20:5
THEN Rev 20:5’s “come to life” = "have everlasting life" John 3:16
THEREFORE,
Rev 20:5’s
The rest of the dead did not "come to life" until the thousand years were completed.”
=The rest of the dead did not "have everlasting life" until the thousand years were completed.”
 
THAT IS,
The "life" rewarded the Martyrs from the Tribulation for being beheaded for the Gospel and for rejecting Beast & his mark,
= the same "life" automatically granted freely to the rest of the dead, ie, everybody else, after the “thousand years,”
("Really just 40, but not really, probably only 14, possibly less, Claudius to Nero, but it was enough nonetheless, it was “perfectly complete” ")
 
SO,
What do we normally call it when
The dead, Beast-accepters get to “come to life" = "have everlasting life" as the beheaded, martyred Beast-rejecters?
 
(Remember, we all agree that Rev 20:4’s "came to life" = "resurrection" of Rev 20:5).
 
What do we normally call it when
dead, Beast-marked sinners automatically receive “resurrection" = "have everlasting life" as the Saints?
 
 
WE CALL IT "UNIVERSALISM."

THEY CALL IT "UNIVERSAL SALVATION."

THEY CALL IT "COMPREHENSIVE GRACE."

 
So we see that Pre-70AD Millennialism has an inescapable connection with Universalism via its Gnostic-style deviation from orthodox resurrection. Remember, it was Hymenaeus & Philetus who were saying things like, "Since the 1st Resurrection of the Just that is already past was all about people "coming to covenant life" in Christ (Rev 20:4), then the Resurrection of the Rest of the Dead when Jesus comes back will be about everybody else "coming to covenant life" in Christ (Rev 20:5), too: nobody but the Devil is going to Hell! Yippee!" (2 Tim 2:11-18). But Paul strongly affirmed that he had not yet attained to the Resurrection of the Just because it had not yet occurred as of his writing of Phillippians 3:10-13 around 62AD.
 
 
 
Note: It should not be overlooked that
the first man to champion The 30-70AD Millennial View in 1971
= the same man around whom is celebrated "The Transmillenial View," often identifed as Preterist Universalism, today.
 
 
 
 
And for those "Full" Preterists who oppose Universalism, I find it highly ironic that those who vigorously oppose Preterist Universalism should just as vigorously cling to the very eschatological & soteriological foundations that provide the support for it. Eventually, one would think that a reasonable mind would put 2 & 2 together and realize they've been defending the very foundations of what they attack.
 
 
 
 
 
 
And this is love, that we walk after Christ's commandments ~2 John 6

 

When exactly was Satan bound, cast & sealed into Bottomless Pit for 1000 years between 30-70AD?

ONE QUESTION for those who insist that

"The Tribulation"+"The 1,000 Years"+"The Little Season of Satan's Release"

all took place during the 40 years between A.D. 30 and A.D. 70:

DURING WHICH OF THESE VERSES BELOW WAS SATAN BOUND IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT?

Every Preterist attempt to posit The Tribulation+The 1,000 Years+The Little Season of Satan's Release into A.D. 30-70 presents a self-refuting credibility problem: It demands one lay aside the very hermeneutic that deduces the A.D. 70 Return of Christ in the first place, "Take all the time texts strictly serious."

 

First, a quick review of the Text in question:

  1. "The 1,000 Years" is demarked by epoch events which define distinct beginning and ending points.
  2. "The 1,000 Years" begins with Satan being bound, cast & sealed into the Bottomless Pit (Abyss) so that he could deceive the nations no more.
  3. "The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" - those who were beheaded during the Beast's reign for refusing the mark of the Beast are made to live and reign with Christ while Satan is bound - the reward of their faithfulness.
  4. "The 1,000 Years" ends with Satan being released for "a little season" to deceive again the Nations (the Gentiles).
  5. After "The 1,000 Years," and after "The Little Season," and after the Satan-led armies are destroyed by fire from Heaven, Satan is then cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast & the False Prophet have been awaiting his arrival.



 

Revelation 20:1-10

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands [ie during "The Tribulation"]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


 

Here it is now,

BETWEEN WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING VERSES WAS SATAN BOUND IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT?

FOR 1,000 OR 40 OR EVEN 5 YEARS?

FOR EVEN 5 MINUTES?

.

And if you are gutsy enough:

1) Which exact verse shows Satan being bound, thereby demarking the beginning of "The 1,000 Years"?

2) Which exact verse shows Satan being released, thereby demarking the end of "The 1,000 Years"?

3) Can you organize these verses into 3 categories: a) BEFORE, b) DURING, and c) AFTER "The 1,000 Years" that Satan was bound & cast in the Abyss?


 

Jesus the Christ
27 AD
  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan : for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.  Matthew 4:10 ~to the Devil

28 AD  And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?  Matthew 8:28-29 ~to devils possessing a man

28 AD  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.  Luke 10:18-20 ~to His Disciples

30 AD  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan : thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.  Matthew 16:23 ~to the Apostle Peter

30 AD  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.  Luke 22:31-32 ~to His Apostle Simon Peter

30 AD  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world [kosmos] be cast out.  John 12:31 ~to His Disciples

30 AD  Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.  John 13:26-27 ~at the Last Supper

30 AD  Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world [kosmos] cometh, and hath nothing in me.  John 14:30 ~to His Disciples

30 AD  Of judgment, because the prince of this world [kosmos] is judged.  John 16:11 ~to His Disciples

 

Peter the Apostle to the Circumcision
35 AD
  Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?  ~Christ's Apostle Peter spoke to Ananias

 

Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus (Paul the Apostle) 
37 AD
 
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.  Acts 26:15-18 ~Christ appeared to Paul and called him to become the Apostle to the Gentiles 

 

Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles
51 AD
 
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil , who are taken captive by him at his will.  2 Timothy 2:25-26 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

52 AD  Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.  1 Thessalonians 2:18 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Thessalonica

52 AD  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Thessalonica

56 AD  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan , that they may learn not to blaspheme.  1 Timothy 1:20 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

56 AD  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.  1 Timothy 3:6-7 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

56 AD  For some are already turned aside after Satan.  1 Timothy 5:15 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

56 AD  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.  1 Corinthians 5:4-5 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

56 AD  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.  1 Corinthians 7:5 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

56 AD  But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.  1 Corinthians 10:20-21 ~Christ's peresecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth  [Kind of looks like the ages of when paganism was rampant was the very same that the devil(s) were on the loose, no?]

57 AD  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.  2 Corinthians 2:11 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

57 AD  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world [aionos "age"] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.  2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

57 AD  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.  2 Corinthians 11:14-15 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

57 AD  And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.  2 Corinthians 12:7 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

58 AD  And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.  Romans 16:20 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Rome

61 AD  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world [kosmos], according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:  Ephesians 2:2 ~Christ's imprisioned Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus

61 AD  Neither give place to the devil.  Ephesians 4:27 ~Christ's imprisioned Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus

61 AD  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.  Ephesians 6:11-13 ~Christ's imprisioned Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus

 

James the Lord's brother
Before 62 AD
 
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil , and he will flee from you.  James 4:7 ~before Jerusalem Church pillar James was martyred for the Faith

 

Peter the Apostle to the Circumcision
62 AD
 
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil , as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:  1 Peter 5:8 ~Christ's soon-to-be-martyred Apostle Peter wrote to the dispersed churches about their fiery trial

 

John the Apostle whom Jesus loved
62 AD
 
Love not the world [kosmos], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world [kosmos], the love of the Father is not in him.16 For all that is in the world [kosmos], the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world [kosmos].17 And the world [kosmos] passeth away , and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. ...22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist , that denieth the Father and the Son.  1 John 2:15-18, 22 ~Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

62 AD  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.  1 John 4:3-4 ~Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

62 AD  And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [kosmos] lieth in wickedness.  1 John 5:19 ~ Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

62 AD  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.  2 John 7-11 ~Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

 

Jesus in the vision of Revalation
63 AD
 
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.  Revelation 2:9 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.  Revelation 2:13 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan , as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.  Revelation 2:24 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  Behold,I will make them of the synagogue of Satan , which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.  Revelation 3:9 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

 

Jesus revealed to John the Apostle by the vision of Revelation
63 AD
 
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan , which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Revelation 12:9-17 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.  Revelation 20:1-3 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia
NKJV


 

Conclusion:

27-67AD: The New Testament documents more of Satan's interactions against godly men -Christians- during the 27-67AD period than all other history combined. Satan, the god of that age per 2 Cor 4:4, was walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, 1 Peter 5:8.

	

RELEVANT LINKS:

Honestly, does the Bible really teach that Satan was bound, cast & sealed into the Deep (Abyss) while Christians ruled with God & Christ throughout the bulk of the 30-70AD period? (Actually, wasn't such blessings what they were expecting to arrive with Christ's soon Return?)

When exactly was Satan bound, cast & sealed into Bottomless Pit for 1000 years between 30-70AD?

When exactly was Satan bound, cast & sealed into Bottomless Pit for even 40 years between Romans 16:20 and 70AD?

3 Questions for every 30-70AD Millennialist

30-70AD: Matthew 23-25 Last Days Tribulation - They knew which GENERATION, their GENERATION

30-70AD: SATAN walked about freely as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour

30-70AD: The Last Hour 1 John 2:18

Against the Errors: 30-70AD Millennialism & Universalism
30-70AD Millennialism: Foundation of Preterist Universalism
"Having Eternal Life" is not equal to "Being Raised Up at the Last Day"
Consistent Full Preterist conclusions lend themselves to Universalism
Bisecting Bi-Millennialism

And this is love, that we walk after Christ's commandments ~2 John 6

Consistent Full Preterist conclusions lend themselves to Universalism

By Todd Dennis, a relevant excerpt from his' PreteristArchive.com website:
http://preteristarchive.com/Preterist/Idealism/dennis-todd_06-03.html

IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT TODD DENNIS USES THE TERM "FULL PRETERISM"
TO REFER TO THE SAME THING CALLED BY PROPHECYHISTORY.COM AS "30-70AD MILLENNIALISM"
THAT IS: "FULL PRETERISM" = "30-70AD MILLENNIALISM"


INVESTIGATING THE "HYMENAEAN CHARGE"

I hope this page helps explain why I'm personally making the move as far away from full preterism as possible. It is recognized that dogmatic full preterist "true believers" will always take issue with the points on this page; however, my intent is really only to show the open-hearted that there is a need to question the legitimacy of full pret assumptions and seriously evaluate all its claims to the point of registering the consequences. This applies to all doctrinal shifts during our lives, which process will hopefully never end. Having promoted the view for over a decade, though, I feel a real sense of responsibility to point out the errors discovered.
We can often find ourselves in trouble when we build unproved assumptions upon assumptions. It is easy enough to get so far ahead of facts, that what was left unproven quickly turns into a fundamental point upon which layers of further assumptions are built. Please take, for instance, the following line of reasoning from the earliest known full preterist author. Notice that between his 'if' and 'then' logical argument lies piles and piles of assumptions -- all of which are taken as a whole, and treated as settled and obvious :
Now, if at the destruction of Jerusalem there was a taking away of the first covenant; a removing of .the old heaven and earth, and a burning up of the same ; and if sin, Satan, death, and hell have their true and scriptural meaning in reference only to the two covenants of Sinai and Sion, as consequent upon the Adamic transgression - and proof to the contrary is defied - if these things be so, then are we warranted in concluding….
By attempting to make the fulness of the consummation of the ages fit into the historical year of AD70, full preterist systems build upon a fundamental truth which is very much still a matter of debate. Accordingly, those systems seek to find natural imagery in that period which answers to the prophecies of the Bible according to that fundamental, unassailable presumption.
When those settled issues are challenged, the systems are so committed to what lies far ahead -- generally unwilling to investigate the critical principles which lay far behind -- that the objections are typically dismissed with a wave of the hand and treated with scorn. This is a problem.
This anti-Berean approach yields many negative consequences, doctrinally and interpersonally.
Doctrinally, the trend of using natural people and events to explain spiritual and eternal realities in Christ results in the declaration that the shadows are actually the substance (It is upon this basis that full preterism is being investigated as actually being "Hyper Preterism" after all). As noted, the substance is regarding "things not seen" -- AD70 best being seen as the confirmation perhaps.. but not as the actual substance of the promises and inheritances to God's people -- which are spiritual in nature, and much more glorious (II Cor. 1:20). (It is helpful to consider the "Land Promises to Israel" in this regard. More details regarding this hermeneutical method are listed here)
The consequences to interpersonal communication and intrapersonal behavior are apparent enough, and are displayed on message boards from every Christian system around the Internet. It seems axiomatic that the sowing of absolute self-certainty in one's own position yields a sense of superiority and pride. If it gets frustrated and frantic, this "magical thinking" quickly turns into narcissism and can even be deadly to people and marriages.

In regards to the "hyper preterist" charge, it appears that upon both of these grounds - doctrinal and personal - those who claim that the resurrection is "in AD70" actually do fulfill the charges against the heretic Hymenaeus: 2 Timothy 2:18: "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. ." (by the way, this doesn't mean that the resurrection is to be expected at some historical point in the future either, so the charge of my view being partial preterism is mistaken).
Without any regard for the argument that Paul was merely stating that he was a little ahead of his time (the resurrection coming within 10 years), this is not germane to the point in question. Whether stating that the resurrection was in AD60 (Hymenaeus), 70 (Full Preterism), or 2006, if one is teaching that the resurrection of all the dead is past already, then they are placing themselves underneath the consideration of this statement by Paul.
There are also other aspects of Paul's problem with the teaching of Hymenaeus besides simply his timing of the resurrection, as well. By seeking to "overthrow the faith" of sincere people, the heretic was treating the body of Christ destructively and with disrespect -- placing his love for his beliefs above his love for his brother. This same 'scalping' tendency can be seen among many full pret "true believers," who openly relish overthrowing the faith of Futurists in order to establish their own. No longer is the focus on leading the lost to Christ; instead, evangelistic zeal is given over to 'teaching the truth of Covenant Eschatology' and overthrowing the beliefs of brothers and sisters in Christ. This is no small issue, particularly considering the violence and venom that is associated with a lot of that work which pits itself against the Body in a wholly divisive way. This methodology is explicitly condemned in the Word.
In addition to the previously mentioned "hymenaean hallmarks" of teaching that the resurrection is over, and in seeking to overthrow the faith of believers, there is a third significant reason why this view is being investigated as "hyper-preterism" -- the common teaching that there is no longer need for faith at all. The reasoning is that, since AD70 brought the fullness, and, no longer seeing through a glass darkly we now see face to face, our faith has been turned to sight. This is akin to the common teaching that since believers were given all of Christ in AD70, there is no more need for the Holy Spirit. By believing that the fullness came in history, it is often taught that there is no longer place for those things in part. Therefore, by teaching that there is no more need for faith, that view would indeed "overthrow the faith of some" -- and I have seen it happen many times.
The claim from a former full preterist that the hymenaean charge rings true (in both the error and the overthrow of faith) would hopefully raise serious flags of warning. And yet, those who are "true believers" in the view reflexively dismiss the hymenaean charge with a wave of the hand, and will say something like "this charge is nothing new, and has been dealt with before." Regarding this infamous "oh-so-certain" self-assurance of certain Christians, ignorance is bliss. As a result of the hobbyist approach to theology, which is in large part a child of the World Wide Web, systems are typically sculpted in a very shoddy manner. That which doesn't support the predetermined result is typically put aside pending further study -- or ignored altogether. Perhaps there is a legitimate reason why certain arguments against the view are used time and again.
CONSISTENT FULL PRETERIST CONCLUSIONS LEND THEMSELVES TO UNIVERSALISM
Despite the appearance of broad consensus, there are really precious few areas of general agreement among (or even within) the various full preterist hybrids. It has been joked that there are as many full preterist leaders as there are full preterists, but it is not far from the truth to say that each has their own unique spin on doctrine.
Regardless of the differences from one system to another, however, what may be most important to observe is the level of consistency presented within themselves. It seems that all full preterist approaches can be seen as falling within varying degrees of consistency in application of their fundamental hermeneutic of AD70 consummation.
Those who are relatively new to the view tend to think that they know what is all about based upon a cursory reading of Matthew 24:34, but it really does take a few years to get past the initial burst of re-discovery in order to recognize the logical and scriptural conclusions of the hermeneutic itself. Without waiting on the Lord and patiently learning as the Spirit provides, we may learn the errors of our ways through negative experience. This is one reason why it is important to resist the impulse to "know everything overnight."
Consistency within the system is really what sets the newbies apart from the more experienced, generally speaking. Just like with Dispensationalism, one can believe that Jesus is King now, but if the system will not allow it, then they are just inconsistent, and inexperienced within their own hermeneutic, not really representing it for what it teaches. The same is true, in my opinion, with that form of full preterism which teaches that everything was fulfilled historically by AD70, and yet that not everyone in the world enjoys its benefits.
By assuming a fundamental hermeneutic which applies the blessings of prophecy to all people in history post AD70 -- not making the important clarification IN CHRIST -- the errors start to compound, and a particular trend of doctrine starts to emerge. This particular stream has been recognized by a large number of people who are now embracing doctrines of Universalism, or comprehensive grace and redemption.
It is often said in full preterist circles that one's eschatology directly effects their doctrine of salvation.. and this is certainly the case. Forms of Universalism, as a result of a more consistent application of the completely fulfilled eschatology, are being increasingly recognized, from with and without, as the true face of full preterism. Though a trend within a system cannot disprove a system, the fundamental hermeneutic can.
There are a number of uniquely full preterist conclusions which, though they may not naturally lead to doctrines of Universalism, certainly do lend themselves to this view. And though I do not embrace Universalism myself, I absolutely recognize that to them belongs the progressive banner of full preterism, and that they are correct to declare themselves the most consistent preterists.
With the basic assumption (which I do not share) that the passing of the Mosaic Law was the focus of eschatology, a number of Universalist-friendly conclusions emerge. Though not all systems embrace every one of these conclusions, they are all certainly representative of general full preterist views :
· Satan was utterly destroyed in AD70
· "The Sin" was utterly destroyed in AD70
· "The Law" totally passed away in AD70 (Covenant Eschatology in particular)
· Everyone is in the "New Heavens and Earth" post AD70
· Everyone is in the "Age to Come" post AD70
It must be clearly stated again that the charge is not that full preterism or covenant eschatology leads to Universalism, but that this trend of thought lends itself to those conclusions. For instance, there are views of "Comprehensive Redemption" and "Comprehensive Grace" exploding throughout the movement, and finding wide exposure at the leading websites. Although some disclaim any direct connection to Universalism, there seems little point in denying that they are just a pace or two away... perhaps even walking up to the edge of the cliff, if not taking the fatal step. From the founder of Covenant Eschatology himself, to vocal contributors on many websites (pro and con), to numerous private individuals with whom I correspond, the direction of inquiry relates to how the destruction of sin and the law relates to the broad application of redemption in the post ad70 world. The numbers do not lie, and point directly to the intimate relationship between all forms of full preterist eschatology and Universalism. In the coming months, the two hundred year history of Preterist Universalism will be presented here. For now, notice that the earliest known Full Preterist book was written by a man who shortly thereafter adopted Universalism:


EARLIEST KNOWN FULL PRETERIST BOOK, WRITTEN SHORTLY BEFORE HIS CONVERSION TO UNIVERSALISM!


The Second Advent of Jesus Christ: A Past Event
(1845)


HERMENEUTICAL INCONSISTENCIES (AND NOVELTIES) WITH NON-UNIVERSALIST FORMS OF FULL PRETERISM
I recognize that full preterist Calvinists absolutely reject the broadening of redemption to every last person in the world, but I believe this fact is based more on their commitment to Reformed soteriology than to their determination for absolute full preterist consistency. Clearly, a Calvinist would never embrace Universal redemption, regardless of how consistent it may or may not be with their chosen eschatology. This is akin to Pentecostal Preterism maintaining the continued applicability of the Apostolic administration, despite have passed beyond their consummation in AD70, as their full preterist eschatology teaches. Not being willing to leave the greater aspect of their theology, yet wishing to hold to full preterism, a happy (though inconsistent) median is found, and the rest is "winked at" in regards to consistency.
In light of the question of consistency, it should be considered how a consistent full preterist view, which acknowledges that the law, the devil, sin, and such were utterly destroyed in AD70, could not be considered lending itself to Comprehensive Redemption?
Considering the sweeping nature of the fundamental assumption of world-wide New Covenant / New Heavens and Earth application in the post-AD70 environment, the answers given to that question demand intense scrutiny. Though particular answers to that dilemma have been offered, they usually require the creation of a previously unknown damning "law of Christ" or some other "doctrinal patch" to cover this hole -- such as a redefinition of "second death," or the creation of a brand new laws which secure for them the balance between particular atonement with universal eschatology. Obviously, the Reformed answer will be that Adam's death still applies to those not in Christ -- which is precisely the point of this article.. that the consummation is to be found IN CHRIST, and not in history. To say that the "consummation of the ages is in ad70" in a universal fashion, and then to make the reception of atonement individually in Christ regardless of that consummation is the inconsistency with which the "historical corporate consummationism" of the Reformed (all limited atonement full preterist systems) are forced to live.
To frame the consistency issue in terms of the Consummation of atonement itself the question must be asked : how many "consummations" are there? Is AD70 the only consummation.. or are there multiple consummations - with a second one which takes place when the person in Adam is "dead and raised in the likeness of Christ", as per certain full preterist systems? Those FP systems which teach "Immortal Body at Death" seem to suggest three different consummation: first in AD70, then in being "born again", and then after physical death. Universalism, on the other hand, typically teaches that there is but one consummation - that in AD70, which settled the issues of Adam and Christ. Preterist-Idealism, on the other hand, though likewise teaching that there is but one true consummation, focuses it as being in Christ, which settles the matter of death, atonement and consummation - AD70 being the outward show of that work of Christ as likewise revealed in AD30.
For now, suffice it to point out just two other dilemmas regarding the consistency of the Reformed approach. Consider the destruction of death and the devil. It is taught among Reformed full prets that death was defeated for all, yet that one must be in Christ to receive its benefits. This is unlike the teaching regarding Satan, though, who is said to be destroyed regardless of one's status in Christ. The issue of consistency with the Reformed also plays itself out in recognition of the limitation of the term 'world.' On one hand, a rightful limitation to being 'in Christ' is seen in terms of "first things," but when it comes to "last things" these limitations are discarded in favor of an end that effects absolutely all. These points will be given a fuller presentation in the months to come.
At the very least, it should be considered that Max King, the founder of Covenant Eschatology, and the man most experienced in the view -- therefore the most likely to have developed a consistent approach -- has developed a Universalist-friendly message of "Comprehensive Grace" to maintain consistency between his eschatology and his soteriology. It appears that countless other full preterists have walked down the path created by the Reformed preterists into the Universalist camp. Certainly, the most vocal and visible -- if not fastest growing -- group of full preterists are the Universalists... whereas the Calvinist influence and numbers appear to be diminishing.
So just as Apostolic / Pentecostal Full Preterism accepts the message of complete fulfillment in that generation up to a point (stopping short of the apostolical gifts), Limited Atonement Full Preterism accepts the message of absolute consummation of all things in AD70 up to a point (stopping short of the effects of Adam's fall). I don't begrudge them their right to do it.. I completely understand and would expect nothing else ; however, so far as consistency goes, they are challenged in my opinion. My point being that in order to truly judge Full Preterism, it must be done using the most consistent approach.
HOW FULL PRETERISM FAILS THE INDIVIDUAL
In spite of this critical look at the trends within Full Preterism and Covenant Eschatology to Universalism, theology is not the motivational factor in this article's call for a much closer re-evaluation of the consequences of looking to history for ultimate prophetic consummation. Having been a church pastor, the consequences of theology upon the hearts and spiritual lives of listeners is known to be of primary and most urgent concern.
For those who have left churches, or found themselves experiencing intense isolation, the personal costs of separating based upon "last things" are clear enough. What is ironic is that, after having left previous fellowships due to disagreements with "last things" find themselves experiencing even more intense isolation due to disagreements with "first things" among those whom they generally agree in the "last things." Having attempted for a decade to forge a unified fellowship of Preterist using the Internet, I realize that the sense of isolation can become even more intense even with the new technology. I've often seen this lack of unity (and oftentimes intense divisionism) lead to grievous disillusionment -- with many walking away from Christianity altogether, as there seemed to be nowhere else to go.
By making "last things" the primary basis of fellowship, there is an inherent consequence of isolation. This trend of compounding isolation and subsequent disillusionment is no fluke. This trend is probably very similar in other sects, but it is certainly true in full preterism. This isolationism seems to gradually increase hopelessness and dissatisfaction. And even if it doesn't effect the "believer" the house, it can very much have an effect on spouses and children. This might be the reason for the massive turnover in full pret. Certainly, there are natural consequences in uniting around something besides the cross of Christ.
For those who wonder why more people do not embrace full preterism, one answer lies in its coldness. Not only doesn't that theology reach within the hearts of people, it doesn't even try. Though those in positions of leadership may tend to think that convincing the minds of people is the critical part of their work, no amount of head knowledge can cover for heart suffering. The dramatic turnover in full preterism has been particularly noticeable over the last 10 years, and the inability of the logical "mind" to satisfy the spiritually hungry "heart" is what I think leads most people to seek better answers -- or, rather, to embrace any eschatology, so long as the more important aspects of that theology are able to minister deep within to the very real tensions and tears that are experienced today.
This appeal is meant to be a recommendation to the authors and teachers within the movement , to search within and see if the "head" certainty that full preterism provides sufficiently provides the peace and rest that are promised for God's people.
FORSAKING THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE CORPORATE
The most common complaint against the full preterist view is its inability to answer the "what now?" questions... but there is a concern that runs much deeper. By identifying the corporate "consummation of the ages" as having been settled for all time in AD70, the individual believers' "transition period" is removed from today, being made a first century reality alone. This error neglects the importance of the "glory to glory" process at work in the life of the believer, (as they pass from old to new within themselves) and chooses rather to accept that there is no sin, death, or devil to be contended with today. In short, full preterist doctrine chooses the corporate over the individual, and this betrayal results in much suffering for those left grappling with the very real transition process within their lives.
By insisting that the devil, law, sin and death have been utterly destroyed for all in AD70, it leaves a sense of failure within those who find themselves still very much under the chains of law and sin in their own lives. Though many teachers may think that a proper doctrinal explanation of the victory we have in Christ should be sufficient to overcome this internal crisis, it is not nearly so effective; in fact, when your heart is suffering, the last thing that is needed is a pep talk or a mind game. No amount of head knowledge can heal heart suffering... rather, it makes the pain even more acute, and the situation seem even more hopeless.
This plight has been the reality for countless simple students, who don't have the luxury of the self-certainty displayed by many of the more convinced leaders and teachers. And what is striking is that even as many of those in leadership positions in the past have dropped out as a result of their own inability to find rest and peace within the full preterist framework, the fundamental problem is left unaddressed. Dismissing the applicability of the tensions displayed in the New Testament, I believe, has a lot to do with this. By assuming perfection and total completion, we lose the results that come from the tension between old and new, and are only left with confusion as to why things aren't better than they are. Consequently, some have left the faith altogether, believing that full preterism -- representing gospel truth -- exposes the failure of the gospel. Clearly, this line of thought does not reflect a large percentage of those who have fallen away from the movement. Nor is the dropout trend intended to be portrayed as inevitable. There are those in every movement, such as the true believers in the last days of Jerusalem, that will never turn from their certainty in the cause, no matter how much struggle is happening within them, or how many people are suffering around them.
It is my sincere message to any "true believer" full preterists who are in crisis personally, to consider that there is an explanation within the context of fulfilled eschatology that will comfort the heart, while providing understanding for the tensions of your circumstance.
FOCUS ON THE INDIVIDUAL HERE AND THE CORPORATE THERE
Part of this answer is recognizing that what is accomplished corporately in the spiritual realm plays itself out in the process of time. Like the work of the cross of Christ, what is a corporate reality in the eternal state must be applied to each individually in time. We would not say that we received the benefit of the shed blood in AD30, not having yet been born (or born again), even though Christ died in that historical day. Rather, we would tend to see that corporate fulfillment dispensed to each sinner saved this day and beyond. The redemption purchased for the entire Body of Christ is given when you "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead -- then thou shalt be saved." Likewise, focusing solely on a corporate consummation in AD70, placing it as settled for all time in the natural realm, without individual application today, denies the "transition period" within the individual, and the importance of the "glory to glory" process at work in the life of the convert today.
If we can contemplate what the personal imagery of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ means, besides just one man coming back to life (as had been done before), then we begin to see what spiritual reality that event signified, and how it all points straight into the deepest part of our hearts. Approaching the cross of Christ from a purely natural mindset, however, cannot help but yield a lower view of just what was accomplished then.

Likewise, the fall of natural Israel in AD70, which has been given as an banner to bespeak the same reality -- only this time using national imagery -- should be approached with the same view towards internal realities. For a closer examination of this concept, read aboutJerusalem as a picture of the Heart.

EXTERNALIZING VS INTERNALIZING SCRIPTURE
Another consequence of embracing the view of a consummation of the ages as a past event in history is that felt within the heart of the individual. By removing that prophetic imagery which speaks of our walk in Christ into the very distant past, we are left looking outward for revelation, as opposed to inward. The lessons of the Word which are meant for today, are limited to time and place, and restricted to the past.
The Word of God is indeed written TO us.. and not just FOR us. It is meant to be deeply internalized, and taken to refer to our day.. not that now-extinct world leading up to the fall of the temple in Jerusalem in the historical year 70.

SCRIPTURES "NOT FOR TODAY" WHEN SEEING AD70 AS THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGES
Another consequence of the assumption that AD70 was the "consummation of the ages" is that all the writings of the Bible are understood as having a context of the old age, seeing as how all scriptures are believed to have been written prior to the coming of the new administration. At the very least, all scriptures are made suspect, pending further review. In most cases, the purpose of the Bible is limited to the "Old Covenant age" and are considered to represent an entirely different administration of God. With this "AD70 terminus" view, many passages of Scripture as not seen as being for today. In fact, there is a great debate as to which passages actually do apply to the New Covenant age. A few, such as Revelation 21 and 22, with the leaves of the tree of life being used for the healing of the nations, are generally accepted as referring to the "historical New Covenant age". However, numerous key passages, such as Christ's prayer "thy kingdom come," are seen as referring to the era "before AD70".
This trend of thinking slices and dices the Word, eliminating, in some cases, the need for prayer, the need for faith, and the existence of the Holy Spirit -- as well as the applicability of the Gospel of Christ itself !
At the very least, all scriptures are made to pass through the "AD70 Filter" to see how the historical consummation might effect the outcome of the passage in question. It is this wary eye which crosses over key verses such as "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment," seeing as how the judgment is taken as a past event in AD70.
To state that we are in a completely different administration than they were is a fundamental presupposition which yields much of the conclusions under review here. The first generation of Christians cannot be cut off from all subsequent generations, as though they lived in a different dispensation than we do today. We mustn't let the external particulars of history turn us away from the fact that the gospel was being preached, and that the tensions they faced in their day are precisely those we feel in ours. As noted above, Paul wrote that if any was in Christ, they were already a new creation -- well before AD70. Instead of seeing the New Testament as revealing the way things were, I believe it reveals the way things are.

FULL PRETERISM : WEIGHED AND FOUND WANTING
It is my hope with the latest direction of the website that partial preterism can be employed as the primary means of reaching the truth of shadow and substance. Though full preterism is a bit more precise with the external fulfillments of prophecy (by not looking the future history for end-times fulfillment) whatever advantage this may provide is more than nullified by the vast amounts of damaging doctrines reached as a result of embracing its fundamental conclusions.
Though many might get upset with me characterizing full preterism as dangerous, it is an issue that must be addressed squarely and honestly. Is it dangerous to one's faith to say that the Holy Spirit is no longer for today, having been marginalized by the parousia of Christ? Absolutely. It is an overthrow of people's faith to claim that faith itself is not for today, having been superseded by sight? Certainly. Is it destructive to teach that the gospel is not for today as many do, having been a specific message to the Jews of the approach of the kingdom? Without question. (I am in the process of archiving the many different Full Preterist definitions of "hyper-preterism")
Obviously, those who embrace the full preterist view have no desire to believe or propagate dangerous doctrine. However, it is not enough to say this, while icily dismissing critical commentaries which come out against the view as being "nothing that we haven't heard before." Considering the seriousness of the charges (and I hope also considering the credibility of the source), dogmatism and self-certainty should be set aside in favor of a sober and humble approach.
Those who find themselves agitated at the content of this letter have missed my sincere call for healing and growth. I am not demanding that anyone else see things the way I do -- and I am certainly not expecting others to repent of full preterism, as I have been led. I would hope that a serious re-evaluation be considered, at least. And this reflection need not be based solely upon the points that I have presented, but should also include whatever nagging heart feelings may have always been around, yet which have been dominated and overthrown by an unhealthy certainty of mind.
This study is the result of more than a decade of intense study on the doctrines of all forms of Preterism. I pray that it has been helpful to you in some way.
mercy and truth,
todd

Response to "kramden327" Dave's : "Reigning" in the Millenial Kingdom

"Reigning" in the Millenial Kingdom
Hi everyone,

I had an exchange with a futurist who couldn't understand how pret's could explain past fulfillment of believers ''reigning" with Christ in Rev 20. They couldn't see how believers ruled or reigned at any time yet. Aside from this not being a literal 1000 yrs IMO, I would like any comments/corrections from some of you who have probably thought this one out more than me. This is what I wrote 'on another network' as they say:

******************

I think the problem is how we define 'rule'. If we think in terms of earthly, physical, traditional kingdoms - then you're right, the Christians certainly didn't rule over Rome in the first few centuries after the Old Covenant passed away. But let's look at it another way, maybe ruling spiritually, which is how Jesus always described His Kingdom. He never said it was an earthly kingdom.

In fact, He said it was the opposite - 'not of this world.' He was rejected because they were looking for a tougher king who would pound the bad guys and lead Israel to world domination. They wanted some payback and 'rule' over the Romans for a change. Jesus said we could rule with Him in His Kingdom, but not like that. Put the sword down Peter. We will have to rule His way, not our way.

The non-believing world looks at the life of Jesus and concludes it was an utter failure. The Jewish leaders mocked him and sarcastically called Him a King. They considered His words babbling and blasphemy. He was poor, no home, no family, was often on the run, and of course, thankfully for our sake, was brutally beaten and crucified. Doesn't sound like a ruler at all from the world's perspective.

But I know you believe Jesus was victorious even here on earth in His human body. Because you/we look at Him not as the world did/does. We read His words and they are beautiful. We see His love and perfect example and are in total awe. We see how he treated those who hated Him, and how He suffered for us - the last thing we see is utter failure. We see a perfect ruler, even while He was on earth.

Same thing with the apostles and especially Paul. By anyone's worldly standard, Paul had a terrible life. You know what it was. But they were joyous right to their end. No one ruled over them. Do you think Paul considered himself ruled over by the Romans? No way Jose. They may have been physically 'ruled' over - superficially. But in a way far superior to anything temporary and physical, believers know in their hearts that we are not ruled over by anyone except our Lord. Certainly not Christ rejecting people measuring their satisfaction by secular standards. The apostles had a peace only found in Christ. Same thing for you and I today.

So, by God's definition of 'ruling' (the only one that counts), would you say that believers are ruling over the non-believers, or are we not? We are ruling for sure, just not by the world's standard. We are ruling the way it matters most. I'm at peace because we are ruling in God's eyes, not by anything we have done, but thanks to the perfect work of our Saviour Jesus Christ. He's the stone that crushed all the other earthly kingdoms.

*************

Comments?

Thanks,

Dave

By kramden327 on 2006 Dec 16 - 07:58 http://thekingdomcome.com/node/586


"Reigning" in the Millennial Kingdom: NOT UNTIL CHRIST’S 70AD RETURN
A response to Dave "kramden327"
By ProphecyHistory.com at Tulsa Preterist Association
Intro note:
DAVE may as well titled this, "Reigning" in the Amillennial "kingdom." Nothing DAVE wrote here is predicated upon Christ's accomplished Return. Christ's Return is not mentioned even once: the fulfillment of Christ's Return is irrelevent to DAVE's explanation of the Saints "reigning" with Christ. What DAVE does offer above, with no Scripture and easy approval, is no different than classic Amillennialism: that "reigning" started around Christ's earthly ministry and continues the same way forever from there, nothing predicated upon Christ's accomplished Return, not even a mention of it. But the whole reason we get excited about Preterism's past fulfillment view is that we, like the rest of Christendom, have seen in the Word something world-changingly marvelous about Christ's Return, and that His Return to live among us forever occurred around 70AD. I invite DAVE and the reader to rethink and adopt a truly fulfilled position.
[DAVE] Hi everyone,
I had an exchange with a futurist who couldn't understand how pret's could explain past fulfillment of believers ''reigning" with Christ in Rev 20. They couldn't see how believers ruled or reigned at any time yet.
[JOHN] Few people really know their Bibles beyond what is spoon-fed them Sunday mornings or on the radio, not to mention anything about history, even Christian history.
[DAVE] Aside from this not being a literal 1000 yrs IMO,
[JOHN] Fair enough. But I think it is interesting that no one ever offers from Scripture any solid reason why not a “1,000” “years” with the same meanings for such terms as the rest of the Bible’s use for them – it always seems to boil down to the same kind of unbelief & ignorance that the futurist expresses here on this topic.

[DAVE] I would like any comments/corrections from some of you who have probably thought this one out more than me. This is what I wrote 'on another network' as they say:

[JOHN] I am glad to oblige. I will agree every chance I can and point out with what I believe to be constructive criticism –for your & the readers’ benefit- where I cannot agree with you.
[DAVE] I think the problem is how we define 'rule'.
[JOHN] Agreed.
[DAVE] If we think in terms of earthly, physical, traditional kingdoms - then you're right, the Christians certainly didn't rule over Rome in the first few centuries after the Old Covenant passed away.
[JOHN] FALSE. The Roman Empire, that Gentile, idol-worshipping, world-dominating, sole-superpower was driven to declare itself a Christian nation within 250 years of Christ’s 70AD Return, (Constantine the Great's 313AD Edict of Toleration & 325AD Council of Nicea). This is an astonishing achievement. From the period of 70AD to 313AD, Christians converted Romans faster than Romans killed Christians – the losses to both sides mirror that of major, prolonged world conflict, i.e. WARFARE. And the dominant social forces within the dominant world powers have been from Christians ever since. That is, the dominant power over daily lives is religion, and the dominant religion over the dominant world powers has been the Religion of Christ ever since this world-shaking revolution that drove the old, pagan Roman Empire to its knees before Christ and His People. And what took its place? The Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire), an overtly Christian dominion, so much so that when the Mohammaden revolt took place, it was characterized as a revolt against Christendom.
[DAVE] But let's look at it another way, maybe ruling spiritually, which is how Jesus always described His Kingdom. He never said it was an earthly kingdom.
[JOHN] He never said it wasn’t, either. DAVE's use of the word "maybe" indicates speculation. Jesus simply said His Kingdom was not FROM here, not that it did not had no direct power here. It was not FROM here, it was still on its way here from the Heavens, arriving with Him at His 70AD Return, John 14:1-3. Jesus Christ personally gave the Revelation to John. Here’s some things Jesus said in Revelation, written around 63AD:
RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
Rev 2:26-27
26 And he who OVERCOMES (PRESENT), and KEEPS (PRESENT) My works until the end, to him I WILL (FUTURE) give power over the nations —
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'*
as I also HAVE RECEIVED (PAST PERFECT tense) from My Father;
NKJV

Remember, Revelation was a predictive vision given around 63AD of those "things that were shortly to come to pass," i.e., coming to pass shortly AFTER the 63AD writing of Revelation, (Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1).

In the predictive Vision, John foresaw:
Rev 11:15-16
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying,"The kingdoms* of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV
[DAVE] In fact, He said it was the opposite - 'not of this world.'
[JOHN] NO. “Not from this (present pre-70AD) world” is NOT the opposite of “earthly, physical” as you say. You may need to learn a little something about language: the preposition “of” and he preposition “from” are often the same exact word in many languages. Greek is one of them. Jesus was not “FROM” that present world, but He surely was physical, and physically moving on Earth.
NT:1537 ‎ ‎ek or ex ; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
John 8:23
I am not from (ek) this world (kosmou #2889).
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not from (ek) this world (kosmou #2889). If My kingdom were from (ek) this world (kosmou #2889), My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." NKJV
[DAVE] He was rejected because they were looking for a tougher king who would pound the bad guys and lead Israel to world domination. They wanted some payback and 'rule' over the Romans for a change.
[JOHN] True. Who do you think gave them that idea?
Here’s what the Word of God spoke through Daniel,
Dan 2:44-45
44 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 4
Dan 4:17
the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.'
Daniel 4:25-27
until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on whomever He wishes. 26 'And in that it was commanded to leave the stump with the roots of the tree, your kingdom will be assured to you after you recognize that it is Heaven that rules. 2
Daniel 7:26-28
26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.' 2
John the Baptist became famous by announcing
Matthew 3:2-3
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
[DAVE] Jesus said we could rule with Him in His Kingdom, but not like that. Put the sword down Peter. We will have to rule His way, not our way.
[JOHN] (BTW, Jesus was also the One Who had just told that very night to buy a sword if they did not have one, Luke 22:34-36). Christ’s way of ruling includes a whole lot more than just what you are outlining here. The time would not come until AFTER His 70AD Return with His Kingdom, not until AFTER “the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord,” (Rev 11:15), before anything but the suffering servant approach to introducing the Kingdom of the Heavens, the Kingdom of God. Just like DAVE here, their timing was off: they were expecting the kingdom and the reigning to begin with Christ's earthly ministry, but they were wrong and Christ devoted a parable to correct their error. See 70AD: "The Last Day" & Christ Arrive, His Servants Raised to Reign
[DAVE] The non-believing world looks at the life of Jesus and concludes it was an utter failure.
[JOHN] True. That is because they instinctively deny and are willfully ignorant of the insurmountable weight of Christian authority over world affairs since Christ’s 70AD Return. They just cannot admit to themselves openly that the real movers and shakers throughout history since 70AD have been and continue to be the people who profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The most stunning success of history has been that within 300 years of Christ's death as a capitol criminal in a remote corner of the Roman Empire, that last idol-worshipping, Gentile, world-dominating, sole superpower was compelled to throw itself to its knees and declare itself a Christian nation. During the 70AD to 313AD period, Christians converted Romans faster than Romans could slaughter Christians: the losses to both sides are staggering and compare to that of major world conflicts, WARFARE. The Church won and the government of the ancient world's greatest superpower collapsed into the arms of a vibrant & growing, worldwide Church. Religion remains the dominant power over people's lives and the dominant religion within the dominant world powers has been the Religion of Christ ever since - there is neither Biblical evidence nor historical precedence that this arrangement, this kosmos, will ever change back.
[DAVE] The Jewish leaders mocked him and sarcastically called Him a King.
[JOHN] Actually, it was the Roman soldiers who did this, (Matthew 27:11 and Matthew 27:27-31 and Matthew 27:37 and Mark 15:2 and Mark 15:9-20 and Luke 23:3 and Luke 23:38 and John 18:33-40 and John 19:1-6 and John 19:19-22). Unwittingly, as the Earth’s representatives of Ceasar, they & Pontius Pilate had just crowned Him, granting the title, “King of the Jews” to Jesus Christ, as God saw it. As God moved through Caesar to crown Herod "King of the Jews" decades before, God moved through Caesar's representative, Pontius Pilate & his men, to grant Jesus the same title, "King of the Jews." "What I have written, I have written."~ Pontius Pilate, official representative of Caesar in Palestine.
[DAVE] They considered His words babbling and blasphemy.
[JOHN] They tangibly felt threatened by Him and His growing authority over the masses of humanity that gravitated towards Him and were powerfully moved by Him. This is why they hastened to have Him killed off. But some babbling nutjob, or even a murderous nutjob like Barrabas was considered harmless enough to let go. There is something powerful at work when Jesus Christ, the King, is living among His People, and they were afraid of it: they were afraid it would overthrow them and warned the Romans of the same. And for good reason: all of them were overthrown by Christ & His People in good time - AFTER His 70AD Return with His Kingdom to be reunited forever with His People.

[DAVE} He was poor,

[JOHN] Noble men travelled great distances to present Jesus with the royal treasures of gold, frankincense, and myrrh at His birth. His adoptive father and He were skilled artisans, carpenters, from a sizable family (how many brothers & sisters of Jesus are mentioned? Matthew 13:55-56); and His was a prominent family (openly traceable to King's David, Solomon, etc.); that would make Jesus most likely middle class – 'till He laid it all aside to minister. But a group of women, some of them prominent, provided for Him, (Luke 8:2-3 and Matthew 27:55-56 and Mark 15:40-41 and John 19:25). And professional Roman soldiers each made sure to get an article of His clothing, having a little lottery for amongst themselves just for the coat, John 19:23-24.

[DAVE] no home,

[JOHN] Jesus had a residence in Capernaum, (Matthew 4:13 and Mark 2:1 and Mark 9:33).

[DAVE] no family,

[JOHN] There are number of references about Jesus interacting with His family like this one at the beginning of His earthly ministry, during His earthly ministry, and the end of His earthly ministry.

John 2:12
12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.
Acts 1:13-14
13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
NASB

[DAVE] (Jesus) was often on the run,

[JOHN] Please show one verse, even just one verse where Jesus ran, ran from anybody, backed down from anybody, hid from anybody, or was “on the run.” Only this one passage comes to mind: and you don’t “pass right though the midst” of an enraged crowd by running, as if it didn’t depend upon God’s grace.

Luke 4:28-30
28 And all in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they rose up and cast Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way. NASB
.
Christ personally exuded the grace, authority & power of a protected Prince, the King-to-be, that prevented such harm to come to Him or His Disciples - and the Disciples worried how they would survive in its absence until He Returned with His Kingdom & power again; but Jesus comforted their fears about His temporary absence with the promise of the Holy Spirit & power, John 16:1-16, (and see Christ's Return Brings the Kingdom of God WITH POWER not Without).
[DAVE] and of course, thankfully for our sake, (Jesus) was brutally beaten and crucified.

[JOHN] True. And, as demonstrated by His tangible power demonstrated at His “arrest,” He was more in control of the masses at His most vulnerable moments than Pontius Pilate ever was. No one ever did anything to Jesus that He did not allow.

John 18:3-11
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when Jesus said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"NASU
[DAVE] Doesn't sound like a ruler at all from the world's perspective.
[JOHN] This is for at least 3 reasons:
1) The world and worldy Christians do not bother to think about it enough to realize how much in control of His surroundings Jesus really was at all times, and
2) Jesus did do some things that most people with that kind of power & authority would never dream of doing – sacrifice for others, and
3) The time for reigning had not yet arrived – not until He Returned with His Kingdom with power in 70AD.

[DAVE] But I know you believe Jesus was victorious even here on earth in His human body. Because you/we look at Him not as the world did/does. We read His words and they are beautiful. We see His love and perfect example and are in total awe. We see how he treated those who hated Him, and how He suffered for us - the last thing we see is utter failure. We see a perfect ruler, even while He was on earth.

[JOHN] I see a Man who perfectly ruled Himself, setting us an example. And by serving the needs of others, He won their gratitude, their hearts, through the which He began to rule them. He won their respect and affections enough that they voluntarily submitted to His rule. But I also see a Man who knew the time and that the time had not yet arrived for Him to “rule the nations with a rod of iron” and “shatter them like pottery,” (Psalm 2:9). That was to begin at His Return in 70AD, (Rev 2:26-29 and Rev 12:5 and Rev 19:11-16).

[DAVE] Same thing with the apostles and especially Paul.

[JOHN] True: the unbelieving world thinks of Jesus, His Apostles, Paul, Christianity, Christendom, you and me as "losers," even though 2.5 of the world's 7 billion people claim to be "Christian" in one form or another, even though the dominant world superpowers all have significant Christian heritages. The unbeleving world is blind, ignorant and unthinking, and powerless. It can only be Paul that you were thinking about that was “always on the run,” as with the rest of the apostles. This is where Paul says it. Please note how Paul wrote this explicitly to corrects their, and your, error that they were already "reigning" prior to Christ's Return with His Kingdom and power.

RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
1 Corinthians 4:1-21 ~ written around 53AD
4 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.* In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge [reign as a king] nothing before the time, UNTIL THE LORD COMES, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us (SARCASM)and indeed I COULD WISH YOU DID REIGN (PRESENT SUBJUCTIVE TENSE), that WE ALSO MIGHT REIGN WITH YOU! (PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE TENSE)9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
18 NOW some ARE puffed up, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of Godis not in word but in power. 21 What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness? NKJV
[DAVE] By anyone's worldly standard, Paul had a terrible life. You know what it was. But they were joyous right to their end.
.

[JOHN] That is because they were looking forward to something joyful that was coming at the end, upon arrival of the Last Day: the world-changing Return of Christ that was to occur before their generation passed away. They were looking forward to something BIG to happen before their generation ended. They were looking forward to reigning with Christ at His Return with His Kingdom and power. This earnest expectaion is what gave them joy, even as Jesus "for the joy set before Him endured the Cross, despising its shame,"

Hebrews 12:1-4
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
NKJV

Here’s some more of what Jesus, the Word of God, spoke through His Apostle Paul, (remember Matthew 10:40 and Mark 9:40 and John 13:20),

1 Corinthians 6:1-3
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that THE SAINTS WILL JUDGE (REIGN OVER) THE WORLD? And if THE WORLD WILL BE JUDGED (REIGNED OVER) BY YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that WE SHALL (FUTURE) JUDGE angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
NKJV
RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
2 Timothy 2:8-20 ~ written around 62AD
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we DIED (PAST – before 62AD) with Him, we SHALL (FUTURE) also LIVE with Him;
12 If we ENDURE (PRESENT – at 62AD), we SHALL (FUTURE) also REIGN with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness." 2 NASB
Romans 8:8-25 ~ written around 57AD
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 And if Christ IS (PRESENT, 57AD) in you, though the body IS dead because of sin, yet the spirit IS alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead DWELLS (PRESENT, 57AD) in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead WILL (FUTURE) ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh — 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you ARE (PRESENT, 57AD) putting to death the deeds of the body, you WILL LIVE (FUTURE to 57AD).14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we SUFFER (PRESENT, 57AD) with Him in order that we MAY ALSO BE GLORIFIED (CONDITIONAL FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE TENSE) with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings OF THIS PRESENT TIME ARE (PRESENT, 57AD) not worthy to be compared with the glory that IS TO BE (FUTURE TENSE) revealed to us.19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also WILL (FUTURE) BE SET FREE from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. NASB
RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 ~ written around 51AD
19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING? 20 For you are our glory and joy. NASB
2 Corinthians 13:4-5 ~ written around 54AD
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also ARE WEAK (PRESENT, 54AD) in Him, yet we SHALL (FUTURE) LIVE WITH HIM because of the power of God directed toward you. 5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! NASB
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing. NASB
[DAVE] No one ruled over them. Do you think Paul considered himself ruled over by the Romans? No way Jose.
[JOHN] This is what Paul wrote,
Romans 13:1-7 ~ written around 57AD
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. NKJV
[DAVE] They may have been physically 'ruled' over - superficially. But in a way far superior to anything temporary and physical, believers know in their hearts that we are not ruled over by anyone except our Lord.
[JOHN] And the Lord God rules through the civil authorities – He has established every one of them. Look again at the passage above, Romans 13:1-5, penned by Paul of all people.
[DAVE] Certainly not Christ rejecting people measuring their satisfaction by secular standards.
[JOHN] Paul wrote Romans 13:1-7 at a time when Nero was the darling of the Emperor’s court, he wrote it at a time when he had already experienced the heavy hand of those same people in civil authority who employed the powers of government to promoted ceasar-idol worship and to allow themselves to be manipulated from time to time into harassing Christ’s People, even as Paul himself had once done as “Saul of Tarsus,” (Acts 8:1-3 and Acts 9:1-3). Christ's Words through His Apostle Paul in Romans 13:1-5 carry the same authority over our lives today as it did then, even if some of the same kind of people are in some positions of civil authority.
[DAVE] The apostles had a peace only found in Christ.
[JOHN] True. And just about only in Christ. They lived into a greater tribulation, a greater trial to their newfound faith than what later Christian have ever seen since, since Christ’s 70AD Return with His Kingdom & power - this dramatically turned the tables. We will never go back even if some regions appear to do so for a season.
[DAVE] Same thing for you and I today.
[JOHN] While it is true that there is a certain peace found only in Christ. It is NOT TRUE that we live here and now in a condition similar to that of the Apostles and the first generation of Christians. As much as an exaggeration as it is for some to say we are going through as difficult a time as the Reformation, it is much more an exaggeration to say that Christ’s faithful ministers are being hounded from town to town and beaten and treated as the scum of the Earth throughout the major world superpowers as in Paul’s day. Those things happen today, granted, but in the backwater corners of civilization with the condemnation of the world’s superpowers rather than with its open approval and funding. Today, we have people like Billy Graham reaching out to 1 billion people in a single television outreach - only possible with the approval of many world governments. And who can enumerate the many, many TV stations, radio, book distributions, internet outreaches, and church building, etc. etc., that we take for granted today but were well beyond even the dreams of the Apostles.
And many people who reject Christ throughout much of the world are enjoying a great abundance of peace, too. It is directly attributable to the civil authorities that have implemented many of the things taught by Christ’s People over the centuries. You can see the movie, “Amazing Grace” and do a little homework on William Wilburforce to see this in action. Recall our own Martin Luther King, a Baptist preacher of Salvation in Christ alone. And recall the peace & prosperity gained from technological breakthroughs from the likes of such monumental figures as Isaac Newton, a very deeply Christian man. And what of John Witherspoon, the revolutionary Presbyterian preacher of American independence and pastor of a good number of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence?
[DAVE] So, by God's definition of 'ruling' (the only one that counts),
[JOHN] No, God’s definition of ‘ruling’ is not the only one that counts. God the Word has carefully composed a book that is intended to be understood by its human readership. He has carefully selected words that carry with them meanings –definitions- that humans attributed to those words at the time the Scriptures’ writing. God cares about us. God cares about human beings. He considers our needs and is aware of our definitions of things, too. And it just so happens, that God’s definition of ‘ruling’ includes a whole lot more than what you have outlined here: it includes overt, physical, visible, tangible rule, rule even with “a rod of iron,” (Ps 2:9 and Rev 2:27 and Rev 12:5 and Rev 19:15), and even “the sword,” (Romans 13:4 and Luke 22:36-38).

[DAVE] would you say that believers are ruling over the non-believers, or are we not?

[JOHN] Yes we are definitely agreed on this point, but in far more ways than you have outlined, many of which are overt, tangible and visible.

[DAVE] We are ruling for sure, just not by the world's standard.

[JOHN] You are mistaken. We are ruling by the world’s standard, as well, even if the world lies to itself about it as they have a long history of doing with everything else relating to God. Notwithstanding, most of the whole world outside recognizes America as being largely under the influence of Christian teaching, even if some Christians are blind to this. And it does not go unnoticed that virtually ALL of our Presidents and the sweeping majority of our Senators and Congressmen and State governors and mayors publically trumpet their Christianity – especially while running for office. Much the same could be said of the controlling world governments & powers. This is so inescapable to those outside Christ that a my best friend in High School, who has since become an atheist, after years of political interest and law school bemoans, “I really would like gear my life around politics and running for public office, but I don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell because I am not a Christian and I am not willing to lie about it.” Some of you guys need to do like Gideon did and go listen in at the tents of the Midianites sometimes, Judges 7:12-15.

[DAVE] We are ruling the way it matters most.
.
[JOHN] We are ruling in every way: in government, in academia, in business, in the arts & literature, in our communities and in our churches and families and in our own hearts. There is hardly a worthwhile realm or arena that can be mentioned where Christians are not champions and dominant. This far exceeds what they had prior to the Lord's 70AD Return, when all they were learning to rule over was their own bodies.
[DAVE] I'm at peace because we are ruling in God's eyes, not by anything we have done, but thanks to the perfect work of our Saviour Jesus Christ. He's the stone that crushed all the other earthly kingdoms.
*************
Comments?
Thanks,
Dave

[JOHN] He did not come with His Kingdom as “the stone that crushed all the other earthly kingdoms” until 70AD. THAT is why the meek have indeed inherited the Land of Promise and controlling interest in the whole Earth, (Psalms 37:11 and Matthew 5:5) – and our share of control just keeps growing, like a mountain, the mountain of Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:42-45. I am at peace in my soul because of Christ's Mosaic Law-fulfilling Cross at 30AD and still further, I am at peace in my body because of Christ's fulfilling the Prophets by His 70AD Return with His Kingdom & power. God & Jesus showed up together and made their Home with men at Christ’s 70AD Return – in fulfillment of the sayings of the Prophets and of Jesus. If not, we might be getting ready to head for the hills of Pella, (or the Appalachians), at any time and hope that our Y2K provisions hold out long enough. No, we have available to us since Christ’s 70AD Return all the peace Peter, Paul & Mary, the Disciples & His brothers ever had, and a whole lot more that they could only dream about.

2 Kings 6:16-18
16 So he answered,"Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, and said, "Strike this people, I pray, with blindness." And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. NKJV

The people of the World are often blind to the fact that we've got them surrounded and outgunned in ways they can never imagine. And they do not even know who or what to target to make it any different. They are often without clue who the real kings & rulers are among them. And one of the most sought after prizes of people who are movers & shakers is personal privacy, anonymity. And God has graciously added even this to His chosen ones.

Its been fun, Dave "kramden327 ", a good Bible study,

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