PHILLIP: I want to take a look at Satan being released after the "thousand years" were completed. Above you assert that, Satan gathers the armies to surround the New Jerusalem to destroy it.
Let’s take a look why I say that. I’ve highlighted some things here in differing colors to help draw some connections about timing.
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BROWN = people active BEFORE the time of the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period (except for links).
RED = people active DURING the time of the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period.
BLUE = (one group of people) AFTER the [NERO]Beast-Tribulaton period.
PURPLE = (another group of people) AFTER the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period.
Rev 1:9-10 (penned circa 62-65AD at beginning of Tribulation to encourage rejection of the [NERO]Beast & his mark)
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the Tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. …
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Rev 13:16-18 (penned circa 62-65AD at beginning of Tribulation to encourage rejection of the [NERO]Beast & his mark)
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the [NERO]Beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the [NERO]Beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
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Rev 20:1-10 (penned circa 62-65AD at beginning of Tribulation to encourage rejection of the [NERO]Beast & his mark)
20:1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the [NERO]Beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will [future to 62AD] be priests of God and of Christ and will [future to 62AD] reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satanwill be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the Camp of the Saints and the Beloved City [the Wedded City of Rev 21-22, detailed in next vignettes], and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the [NERO]Beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NASB
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You don't get a kingdom without a king, and you don't reign with Christ 'til Christ Returns with His Kingdom & Power to reign.
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PHILLIP: Yet this is not in line with what is shown in Rev 20. In Rev 20:7-10, the New Jerusalem has not descended yet.
FALSE. What Scriptural support does anyone have that the New Jerusalem descends AFTER the Thousand Years end? Is it not just assumed? Assumed for scant other reason than
Rev 21 comes after
Rev 20? No, the New Jerusalem arrives as the old Jerusalem departs, at Christ’s Return, at the beginning of His Return to reign with His servants, at their resurrection at His Return, at the beginning of the Thousand Years.
Luke 19:11-20 (
circa AD 30, just before entering Jerusalem on colt, ~ 1 week prior to the Crucifixion)
11 And while they were listening to these things, He went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. 13 "And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business with this until I come back.' 14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.' 15 "And it came about that when he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him in order that he might know what business they had done. 16 "And the first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.' 17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, be in authority over ten cities.' 18 "And the second came, saying, 'Your mina, master, has made five minas.' 19 "And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.'
NASB
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Mat 25:14-23 (
circa 30AD, days prior to Crucifixion, Olivet Discourse - Parables section)
Note again: the faithful servants were to be "made rulers over many things" AFTER their Lord Returns.
John 14:2-3 (
circa 30AD, just days prior to Crucifixion)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 21:3 (penned circa 62-65AD at beginning of Tribulation to encourage rejection of the [NERO]Beast & his mark)
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the Tabernacle of God is with men , and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 22:3 (penned circa 62-65AD at beginning of Tribulation to encourage rejection of the [NERO]Beast & his mark)
3 the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
Mat 1:23 (circa 4 BC, months prior to Jesus’ birth into Creation)
they shall call his name
Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us .
PHILLIP: Rev 20:9 points out that Satan surrounded the beloved city. Now is this the earthly Jerusalem?
NO. ITS NOT THE OLD JERUSALEM. How can anyone refer to old Jerusalem, which the preceding chapters are devoted to describing Heaven and Saints rejoicing over its destruction, possibly be described here as “The Camp of the Saints, the BelovedCity” ? NO, SATAN IS BRIEFLY RELEASED AND SURROUNDS THE NEW JERUSALEM OVER A THOUSAND YEARS LATER, A THOUSAND YEARS AFTER CHRIST RETURNED TO REIGN WITH HIS SAINTS.
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This event is given to show the contrast between how God makes a powerful distinction between His loathing of old Jerusalem and His eternal love of the New Jerusalem:
*OJ) God judged the old Jerusalem with armies and fire
*NJ) But God goes on to rescue and vindicate forever the New Jerusalem from armies by fire from Heaven.
QUESTION: Which gets destroyed here by the Fire from Heaven?
A) ”The Camp of the Saints, the BelovedCity” (described in further detail a few verses later in Rev 21-22), or
B) “Gog and Magog,” “them,” “they,” “them”
I say its B).
Here's the actual passage to which you refer, please recall my color code above to help keep track of the time,
7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the Camp of the Saints and the BelovedCity, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone…
BROWN = people active BEFORE the time of the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period (except for links).
RED = people active DURING the time of the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period.
BLUE = (one group of people) AFTER the [NERO]Beast-Tribulaton period.
PURPLE = (another group of people) AFTER the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period.
PHILLIP: John appears to be drawing specifically from Ezekiel 39 concerning this gathering of Gog and Magog.
I agree. John is drawing from the memory of that event much the way he draws from the memory of many Old Testament events and images. Ezekiel 39 is precisely why Rev 20':7-10's Gog and Magog CANNOT be describing the armies that surrounded old Jerusalem in 70AD as the
30-70AD Millennial View, (
The Transmillennial View), would have it. The Roman armies were victorious, remember? It was old Jerusalem that was destroyed with fire, and made into a vast, Masada-style, suicidal bloodbath massacre, not the surrounding armies, remember? There is no way whatsoever that either Ezekiel 39 nor Rev 20:7-10's Gog & Magog could ever possibly be equated with the armies surrounding Jerusalem as 70AD approached: just actually look at what exactly happened to exactly whom.
Context:
1) Context BEGINS by considering the verses immediately surrounding the passage in question,
2) Context THEN proceeds to consider the chapters immediately surrounding the passage in question,
3) Context THEN proceeds to consider the entire book wherein is found the passage in question,
4) Context THEN proceeds to consider the entire Testament wherein is found the passage in question,
5) Context THEN proceeds to consider the entire Bible context as a whole.
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PHILLIP: Secondly how are you attributing that "fire [that] came down from heaven," as being the Reformation? The Reformation for all its good had some of its dark times as well. Reformers were persecuting each other.(Zwingli, Calvin)
The "Fire from Heaven" would be the fire of the Holy Spirit that motivated the preachers (like
Jer 20:9, Rev 11:3-5, Luke 3:16, Acts 2:3, Heb 12:29,
Deut 9:3 , Deut 4:24). But said fire was not the preachers themselves who were also, at times, also subject to the passions of their times, as well. Satan, who -among many other things- effectively sowed discord among brethren, was very active once again causing "all Hell to break loose," so to speak all over again, just like times of old prior to Christ's 70AD Return; that is, from the perspective of godly, saintly people who just wanted to obey the Bible. (And I find it a bit comical, almost hysterical, that you would point out to me the need for external, historical collaboration with my view when your view reckons Ezekiel 39 and Rev 20:7-10's "Gog & Magog" descriptive of the historical fate of the armies that surrounded Jerusalem as 70AD approached. Even more hysterical is this call for external, historical support when your view has the Saints reigning with Christ, (before He Returned with His Kingdom & Power), and Satan bound/Abyssed/sealed and during the very period the Bible records more of Satan/Devil's activities among men than all other periods combined, 30-70AD, a time where God's apostles were literally being beheaded, (James, brother of John), hounded from town to town, treated like the scum of the earth, having messengers of Satan sent to buffet them, being stoned, receiving the 40 lashes minus 1, the appearrance of antichrists,
ad nauseum).
PHILLIP: Lastly what I see being implied is that the New Heaven and New Earth of Rev 21 began in Rev 21, one thousand years after AD70.
Not from me, but from your misunderstanding. How many times do I have to post the bold, blue footnote at the bottom of this post before the simple message sinks in? And what evidence from the Bible, (besides the observation that
Rev 21 comes after
Rev 20), can you provide that supports the popularly ingrained notion that the New Heavens, New Earth and New Jerusalem as described in
Rev 21-22 begin AFTER the Thousand Years END?
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Your misunderstanding that the New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem BEGINS
AFTER
the Thousand Years and the "little season of Satan's release" ENDS
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My understanding is that the New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem BEGAN
AT SAME TIME WITH
the BEGINNING of the Thousand Years reign of Christ with the Martyrs from the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period, the 1st Resurrection, the binding/Abyssing/sealing of Satan
ALL BEGINNING AT THE 70AD RETURN OF CHRIST JESUS WITH HIS KINGDOM AND POWER.
PHILLIP: As I understand it, the Old Covenant and New Covenant were running side by side, according to Hebrews 8:13
I agree. I understand it the same way, bro. And when we consider
Hebrews 12:18-28, and trust that "The Heavenly Jerusalem" = "The New Jerusalem," we know that the New Jerusalem was arriving as the old Jerusalem was departing per
Heb 10:9b.
PHILLIP: Now is the implication also that the Old Covenant was still decaying up until 1070?
NO. Not at all. The Old Covenant was still decaying up until 70AD when it was fully taken away to fully establish the New, again per
Heb 10:9b. You have not grasped yet the timeline I have laid out and are arguing against your own faulty strawman.
PHILLIP: As you can see I approached this looking at the Millennium account purely sequentially.
Be careful. Some of the very people you are agreeing with are also the ones who, misunderstanding what I am saying, say things like, "I dont think that
Revelation 20 is sequential."
PHILLIP: I am more in line with Sam Frost and others that see the book of Revelations as being "seven sections that run parallel.
I find many attractive features to that approach, as well. And they are incorporated into my overall approach with Revelation. I just don't try to stuff the "Thousand Years" that follow the resurrection of Christians at Christ's Return into the 40, (or less), years the precede it. The immediate context of
Rev 20, the broader context of the entire book of Revelation, the still broader context of the New Testament, and the overarching context of the Bible just does not support the idea that Satan is bound and the Martyrs from the [NERO]Beast-Tribulation period reign for "1000 years" throughout the 40 years that precede the [NERO]Beast and his mark and the Tribulation he causes immediately prior to Christ's Return with Kingdom & Power to reign.
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EXTRA NOTE: I find, actually, is that Phillip's last 2 comments appear curiously close to self-contradictory. Let's look at them again:
A) As you can see I approached this looking at the Millennium account purely sequentially.
B) I am more in line with Sam Frost and others that see the book of Revelations as being "seven sections that run parallel."
What he's really saying, though, is reasonable. And I do the same thing. We just differ slightly as to which exact points are running sequential or running parallel.
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I may take a look at it when I find some time. If it is anything like the approach that Max King laid out in the second half of his massive 784 page
magnum opus,
The Cross and the Parousia, I think I have more than done my share open-mindedness to that approach when I spent the better part of 2002 giving it a slow, meditative, respectful read. I tried and tried to cajole myself into going along with seductive pull of the word associations he made to sell his
30-70AD Millennial View, (
The Transmillennial View), but could not overcome the loathsome sense of betrayal to the very Bible skills that deduce Christ's 70AD Return in the first place: time texts! Context! Date and audience and place! Jesus' Words the Cornerstone around which all sound doctrine is squared up!
PHILLIP: You have a lot of information that is very interesting and continues to shape the discussion.
That is generous of you. And I understand that it is difficult to cut a fresh trail of thought through the jungle one's mind can come to be from all the details of Revelation. And I believe it is disrespectful of the soils of another's heart to demand a harvest of understanding and agreement immediately following the sowing of the idea-seeds. I count it an honor to have your attention, and consider it wholesome for us to find ways to stimulate the contemplation of Holy Writ among us.
PHILLIP: I am of the opinion that preterism (label :) ) still needs to answering these questions to shape a real concise and systematic approach to the Bible, so thanks for your thoughts.
Humbly,
Phillip
I trust you and the bulk of modern Preterism have reasons that appear very valid to your reasonable minds for presenting things as you do. I've just been trying to demonstrate that there is at least a few good reasons to disagree. This is to show that we are still in "The Manhattan Project" phase of Preterism's development and we have yet to see the explosive yield, "The Bomb," expected from the Preterist View within the greater Christian Community. This is because there are some very real elements within the Preterism's current configuration that are causing it to still be a bit of a "dud:" credibility problems, credibility problems that I am attempting to stimulate interest for us as a group to solve. But if we just want to separate into various echo chambers for our favorite points of view, favorite preacher-man, book author, etc., or worse, take a college football mentality to debating, we do ourselves and the surrounding community a disservice, no?
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If Preterism is still in "The Manhattan Project" phase of its development as I see it, there really is no room for strict enforcement of a set view of things. What we actually need is to get the best and the brightest to humble their minds enough to earnestly work together, freely expressing themselves, honestlyidentifying those elements of our configuration that are producing a credibilty "dud" in place of "The Bomb." And there has to be room for the kinds of frank & pointed discussions such as those for which the Wright Brothers were known.
Work calleth,
Thanks for the congenial tone here,
May God bless you and me and everyone who reads,
In the name of Christ Jesus our Teacher,
ProphecyHistory.com
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the everlasting New Heavens, New Earth & New Jerusalem which all began with Christ's Return circa 70AD.
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*Feel FREE to claim as your own anything I write while I retain the right to do the same with it*
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And this is love, that we walk after Christ's commandments ~2 John 6